THE INTERVIEWER: Okay. I’ll start by getting you to say and spell your name, please.
BILL McLEAN: Je m'appelle Bill McLean; McLean.
Q. Est-ce William ou Bill?
A. William. Ouais.
Q. D'accord. D'où viens-tu William?
A. I’m from the Stoney Reserve in Morley, just between here and Banff.
Q. Dans quel pensionnat êtes-vous allé?
A. I’m generally with what they call Moral Rearmament Initiatives of Change..
Q. That’s the name of the Residential School?
R. Non. Le pensionnat était le pensionnat de Stoney.
Q. C'était juste dans la réserve?
A. Ouais.
Q. Quel âge aviez-vous la première fois que vous y êtes allé?
R. Environ six.
Q. Six. Combien d'années y êtes-vous?
R. Environ sept ans à l'école. J'ai été dans deux pensionnats indiens, l'un à la maison dans la réserve de Stoney sous l'Église Unie. Ensuite, je suis allé au pensionnat Poundmakers à Edmonton pendant les trois années suivantes.
Q. Alors, au total, pendant combien d'années avez-vous passé dans un pensionnat?
R. Je pense que j'ai été au pensionnat pendant douze ans.
Q. Donc, vous étiez vraiment jeune lorsque vous y êtes allé. Vous souvenez-vous du premier jour de pensionnat?
A. I think it was about the first of December, just when I turned six, in 1926. That’s when I was first taken to the school. At that time I didn’t know but this is what my dad and mom always told me that they take me to the school just when I turned six years old because that is what the Indian Agent said that they were going to have all the young children when they reach six years old they had to be taken to the school. That’s why they took me to that school when I was six years old.
Q. Quels sont vos premiers souvenirs d'être à l'école?
A. Well, there’s a lot of things.
I remember I didn’t know a word of English when I was taken to school. In the classroom the teacher was reading a book about the Little Red Hen. He was asking the children what colour is the hen? He asked me what colour is the hen? I didn’t even understand. That’s when I got my first strapping just because I didn’t understand. It wasn’t only me but it happened to practically all those children who couldn’t give any response.
That’s the first way we were being abused.
Et nous n'avons jamais été autorisés à parler notre propre langue à l'intérieur du bâtiment de l'école et à l'intérieur de la salle de classe. Si nous étions surpris en train de parler notre langue à l'école ou dans la salle de classe, les enseignants ou les superviseurs nous en prendraient une part. Cela s'est produit même à l'heure du déjeuner, dans la salle à manger. Nous n'avions pas le droit de parler ou de parler lorsque nous étions dans la salle à manger. C'est l'une des choses que nous avons rencontrées en tant qu'étudiants.
Cela a duré des années.
Q. Y a-t-il des souvenirs précis que vous souhaitez partager au sujet de votre expérience au pensionnat?
A. There are a lot of things. I have experienced so many things. We’ve been abused physically, mentally, morally from the teacher, from the Supervisors and even from the principal who was a Minister, a missionary. He used to call us all kind of names when we didn’t understand what we were told to do. He used to call us dumb heads or dumb bells. Even I remember one time one of the Boys’ Supervisors was calling us “you Black People”. So these were the things we were abused with.
As I grew older learning about the history of my People —
After I came out of school I grew up to be very very bitter towards the White people. I had a lot of hatred towards White people just because of the way I had been treated when I was in school. When I learned how our Native people across the country have met so many injustices, so much suffering, that made me feel bitter. I didn’t know why I was like that but I grew up like that. If you could multiply me with the rest of the students you pretty well know what the students are like who have been in Residential School, who have been raised in Residential Schools.
Q. Lorsque vous étiez au pensionnat, étiez-vous autorisé à rentrer chez vous pour l'été ou pour les vacances?
A. We were allowed to go home for two months during the summer holidays. That’s the only time we were with our parents. I think there was just one day, New Year’s Day, that was the only time we were allowed to go home to our homes, on New Year’s Day. Other than that we were never allowed.
We were never allowed to speak to our own sisters or cousins on the girls’ side. They wouldn’t let us talk to the girls. These are some of the things that we have endured.
Q. Alors, quand vous étiez à la maison pour l'été, comment était-ce de rentrer chez vous pendant l'été au fil des ans?
A. Being in school for twelve years and only living with my parents for two months a year I didn’t get to learn very much about my own traditional values or my teachings. So many things that our People —
Notre peuple avait ses propres enseignements. Ils avaient leurs propres évangiles, très similaires à ce qui est dans les dix commandements. Être à l'école aussi longtemps que nous n'avons jamais appris notre propre éducation traditionnelle. On ne nous a jamais rien appris sur les compétences de vie que nos gens ont appris.
My father’s name was Chief Walking Buffalo. He was the first student to be taken to the McDougall Orphanage and Residential School which was built in 1879. Since he was an orphan, when he turned ten years old he was taken away from the school by this missionary who came to officially open that Residential School. His name was Reverend Doctor John McLean, and he gave my dad that name McLean. He called him George McLean. So he took him off the Reserve School and he was taught in a non-Indian school until he came back on the Reserve when he was nineteen years old he always tells us.
À partir de là, il a été interprète pour les chefs signataires qui ont signé le traité n ° 7. Il a été l'interprète pour eux après sa sortie de l'école.
Ensuite, j'ai dû apprendre de lui, de ma mère et de mes grands-parents sur leurs propres valeurs traditionnelles et leur éducation.
One of the things for us as Native People, compared to the Europeans, our People had their own form of government. They had their own education. They had their own gospels. When the Europeans came they found the Native People in this country, since they didn’t understand our people, they thought that we were uncivilized people. They even called our People savages. That’s the first thing that our People endured, being called savages.
Puis à partir de là, ils ont créé la Confédération ici au Canada. Par l'entremise de cette Confédération, le premier premier ministre, Sir John A. Macdonald, a dit qu'il allait conclure des traités avec les autochtones parce qu'ils allaient construire un chemin de fer transcontinental à travers le Canada d'un océan à l'autre. Ce chemin de fer transcontinental allait traverser les territoires indiens et ils voulaient donc conclure ces traités avec les autochtones. Ensuite, nous étions au Traité n ° 7.
That’s when the chief said —
We’re called the Nakoda Tribe but they call us Rocky Mountain Shoes. We had joined the Blackfeet Confederation at the time of the Treaty back in 1877. At that time they had given us some promises, Treaty Promises. According to what the stories that we do hear from our People at that time, just like what my dad used to hear from the Chiefs that he used to interpret for them, when they talked about the Treaties and what they had been promised, they were told that some day in the future when they have schools for Native children, some day in the future they would be able when they have enough education, they can administer their own affairs. These were some of the promises that we had been given, promised to our People in Treaty No. 7.
Donc, une des choses tristes est que dans les écoles, nous sommes victimes de discrimination en raison de la perte de promotions. La limite de l'éducation quand nous étions à l'école était la 8e année. C'était la limite de notre éducation. Jusque dans les années 1930 et 1940, lorsque l'Association indienne de l'Alberta avait organisé une association pour les Premières Nations de l'Alberta, c'était le moment où ils devaient donner des études supérieures aux autochtones depuis lors. Avant cette 8e année était la limite. Nous n'avions donc qu'un niveau d'éducation insuffisant.
We didn’t really know very much about our own traditional education. We didn’t know enough about the White man’s education so we were left right in the middle.
Later on in years when they built another school on our Reserve back in 1925 they had to put all these six-year old children in the school, in that Residential School. As I said, I was taken to school when I was six. I was in there for about eight years in that school until I reached Grade 8. My dad wanted me to get further education. He made an arrangement with a school in Edmonton, Poundmakers Residential School and I went there. I found that place was a lot better than the school I attended at home. That Residential School at Morley was very strict. They wouldn’t even allow us to go to any of our ceremonies held by our people. They didn’t want us to learn anything about the Native ceremonies. They wouldn’t let us go to any of those while we were in school. This is one of the things that I really felt that we had been abused to make us lose the traditional values.
In our Native education, pre European, our Native People were taught nature’s education. They were able to read the sign of the sun. They were able to read the sign of the moon, the stars, the air, the water, Mother Earth and all the environment. And we were able to teach —
There is a sign in our own physical body which will tell —
We were taught about what it really means. There’s a sign, there are feelings in your body, even a sign in your eyes.
And when you hear —
They always say if you hear a dog howling at night it means there is going to be a death, or something disastrous is going to happen in the family. Or if you start to see horses or cattle or dogs or cats or anything playing around, frolicking around, they say there is going to be a change in the weather. In the fall if you see the geese flying low it’s going to be a good winter. If you see the geese flying way high migrating south, it’s going to be a cold winter. They know practically everything about nature. They know if it’s going to be a cold winter or going to be a good winter. They were able to predict the kind of weather. They were able to predict the seasons. All those things that our People have learned but being in Residential Schools those were never taught. That’s what we lost. That’s the crumbling of civilization for us as Native People during the time we were in Residential Schools. We lost all that. We became an unjust society. We were never give the same privileges. We never got the same opportunities as the rest of the citizens in this country. We’re just like babies at the time of the Treaty.
I was in Switzerland back in 2001. I was asked to sit in on a Workshop held by the United Nations members and world leaders from sixty countries. There I heard four things which I had never heard before. One United Nation member from Palestine, one from France, he asked me, “Do you realize that your First Nations in Canada have been conquered through peaceful coexistence?” That’s one of the things I never used to know.
As I say, through our lack of education we don’t get promotions so our students only get so much education, a substandard education, not enough to get ourselves to become equal with the rest.
He said that another thing that really held us down is how we are being recognized as a Third World People. At that Conference, that Workshop, that was the only time I knew the global population of Indigenous People, the global population of global Indigenous People, they tell me there’s 350 million Indigenous People around the world which I never used to know.
J'ai voyagé avec mon père, comme je l'ai dit, dans différents pays en dehors de l'Amérique du Nord. J'ai été à Hawaï, aux îles Fidji, en Nouvelle-Zélande, en Australie, aux Philippines, au Japon, à Johannesburg en Afrique du Sud, à Bonn, en Allemagne, à Genève, en Suisse et à Londres, en Angleterre. Ensuite, nous sommes allés en Amérique du Sud. Nous avons assisté à une conférence en Floride pendant dix jours. Après cela, l'organisation du réarmement moral changerait. Nous avons été invités par les gouvernements sud-américains au Brésil, à Sao Paulo au Brésil et nous y avons passé encore dix jours. De là, nous sommes allés au sud jusqu'à l'embouchure de l'Amazone. Nous y avons trouvé des autochtones appelés Amazonis (ph.). Ils nous ont dit qu'ils n'avaient jamais été confédérés.
We went to Lima, Peru. We went to La Pas in Bolivia. I went and asked at the Canadian Embassy what is the population of Indigenous People in South America. He told me that including Central and South America there are thirty million Natives. So these are the things that I never used to know. But what I had learned —
Je dis toujours que j'ai appris plus simplement en voyageant, en voyant ce qui se passe dans le monde.
I mentioned that our People were able to read the signs of Nature. Back in 1938 I remember very well you see this evening star that comes out in the sky, it comes out bright —
Q. Hum-hmm.
R. À ce moment-là, je me souviens qu'ils disaient qu'il y avait quelque chose qui n'allait pas à cause du changement de couleur de cette étoile du soir. Il vient avec un peu d'une couleur rougeâtre. Nos gens disaient qu'il y aura une catastrophe dans le monde. Ils ont donc dû faire une prière de danse du soleil, priant pour les gens, pour tout, pour la nature, afin que rien ne se passe ici dans notre propre pays.
Not too long after World War II broke out. They were able to notice that. That’s the kind of education our People had.
One of the sad things is since the Europeans didn’t understand our People, they thought we were uncivilized people, and then travelling with this Initiatives of Change and Moral Rearmament —
My dad always to tell us the only weapon, the priority for Native People, is to get the best of the White man’s education, learn the best of Native education and use both. That’s the only way you are going to cope with the rest of the seditions in this country. I really believe in that.
What I learned from the Initiatives of Change —
Les gens doivent vraiment changer leur vie. Ils doivent prendre leur propre décision dans leur propre vie s'ils veulent voir un changement dans leur société, un changement dans leur communauté, un changement dans leur nation, ils doivent commencer par eux-mêmes.
En 1958, je suis allé au Centre de formation au réarmement moral. C'était la première fois que j'allais dans un endroit comme celui-là. C'était une grande conférence pour des gens du monde entier. J'ai trouvé des gens de soixante pays différents, je pense. Je sais qu'ils m'ont dit qu'il y avait environ six cents délégués là-bas.
One of the things I learned when I attended there, after being there for four days —
Quand je suis allé pour la première fois dans ce centre de formation, j'ai été placé dans la même pièce avec un compatriote albertain. Il était d'Edmonton. Son nom était Jack Freebury (ph.). J'ai été mis dans la même pièce que lui.
Right away I had resentment. I didn’t know why, but I wouldn’t speak to him unless he speaks to me, talks to me. Attending the sessions I hear people giving the convictions from their lives, how to put right what’s wrong in our own lives, how to put a change in their lives, saying that human nature can change and how to apologize to people and how to ask forgiveness and all that.
Gee, I thought, how can I forgive somebody who has hurt my feelings? That’s the first thing I thought. But later on I began to start to think of my own gospels from my own People. I started to think. One day during the session I heard one of the big leaders there talking to the whole audience, speaking to the whole audience and I started to feel very guilty. I thought somebody must have been telling him what kind of a person I was. He was making me feel very guilty by what he was saying.
Just then a thought came to me. You can’t hide anything from God. You can’t deny anything from God. Right then I started to think of my own roommate. So that evening I went back to my room. When Jack came back in the room I said, “Jack, I want to apologize to you for hating you for being my roommate. I want to apologize to you. I want you to forgive me for this.” So he said he will. And he said that he wanted to apologize to me, too, and asked me to forgive him.
He said before he met this International Forum for Moral Rearmament Initiative of Change he never had any interest in the Native People. He didn’t understand the Native People. He didn’t care for the Native People. So both of us got honest with each other. From that day on we became one of the best friends. He’s a White man and I’m an Indian but we’re still the best of friends.
A partir de ce jour, toute mon amertume et ma haine sont parties. J'ai pu parler à n'importe qui.
I also found myself feeling very superior to the dark people, the Black people, and I was very superior to the Asians. But from that day on I was able to speak to any of them, feeling they have the same feelings. I feel that they are all God’s people. I think this is what is needed here in our own country. There is a need for change in ourselves as Native People, a change in our society, a change in the community and a change in the nation. That’s the only way we’re going to see a better future for the future generations.
Or else we’re going to follow in the same footsteps of so many conflicts there are in other countries, just like what is happening in Africa. When I was in Johannesburg we also went to Uganda, in the central part of Africa. It was very lawless there. There is no freedom there. I found that out. If there’s not a change in the future with all the Natives getting so much education, learning just as much as anybody, if there’s not a change in ourselves there could be a lot of conflicts. That’s what will happen. So as I say, that’s why we need a change in ourselves, to put right what is wrong in ourselves. Put right what is wrong in our society, put right what is wrong in our community and in the nation.
J'ai entendu cet homme parler, ce député. J'ai écouté. Il faisait référence au besoin de changement; un changement dans la nation.
I maintain that no matter how much suffering we have endured, endured injustices and all that by the survivors of Residential School, if we make a change in ourselves we will go on to see a better future for our children. But we have to start with ourselves. That’s what I see.
Q. Pensez-vous que cela commence avec les gens qui partagent leurs histoires? Est-ce pour cela que c'est important?
A. Well, that’s one of the things that is needed. We do have —
A few of our own People have gone to these Initiative Change Training Centres and they begin to realize and there begins to be some changes in some of our Native People. And then we’ll feel that it’s not only us that need to change. It’s everybody in the country, the dominant society and everyone in the country so we can have a better relationship without any discrimination, prejudice and all that. Because discrimination and prejudice is not born. It’s being taught. These are the things that we really have to get down to see where we are wrong.
I’ve been saying that we still have a long ways to go to really understand each other. If you could multiply me, between me and Jack Freebury, my friend from Edmonton, you could well see what kind of two cultures there is here in Canada. There’s a needed change.
So I would like to see that. I’ve been hearing people talk about this, but there’s more need of change.
One thing I said one time when we were talking about the national day for Aboriginal People, I said that it’s time for us, the First Nations of Canada —
— End of Part 1
…part of the government department under this thing.
I was saying if that time ever comes that’s the only time our Native People will understand. They will have an interest in their own people. They will understand their own people. They care for their own people. They know where the need is in all these different communities across Canada. They know where the need is in the lives of the Native People better than the present bureaucrats in Ottawa. I don’t think any of them ever set foot in these Indian communities. That’s one of my visions.
Q. It seems since Residential School you have learned —
Since Residential School you were talking about learning more about our traditions and one of the important questions that we ask is about people’s healing journey. That is very important. So could you talk to me a bit more about your healing from Residential School?
A. Yeah. That’s why I say there is a need for healing and reconciliation in ourselves, no matter who they are, not only the Native People but the rest of the people. That’s one of the things that is really needed.
Q. Voudriez-vous ajouter quelque chose au sujet des pensionnats indiens ou souhaitez-vous ajouter quelque chose à ce sujet? Y a-t-il autre chose que vous aimeriez dire sur votre expérience au pensionnat?
A. I have been helping the teachers at the school right now. That’s what I’m talking about right now, where there is a need for change.
With the kind of education that we’ve got, like I said, they are discriminating against our people, our children, through social promotions so when they reach Grade 9, when they are going to go to high school, they find themselves about a grade or two behind. That’s when the big majority of our Native People drop out. That’s where it is. That has to be changed. We have to get the same level of education as the rest.
Q. Vous avez donc été très occupé.
A. Ouais.
Q. Depuis que vous avez quitté le pensionnat à dix-huit ans, vous travaillez fort.
A. In those days in Residential Schools they sent out teachers who were the leftovers. All the good qualified teachers go to the towns and cities. The ones that didn’t get a job in the cities, they had to go to the Indian Schools. They are the ones that really didn’t have enough degree to be teachers.
That’s one of the things, too, that really kept our Native People down. I was just saying the other day that you never see a millionaire Native Person in this country. You see other people from other countries, they come to Canada. Canada is supposed to be one of the richest countries in the world. A lot of them became millionaires but none of our own People ever become millionaires.
Q. Nous achetons des billets de loto!
A. Ouais.
Q. Très bien, William.
R. Donc, ce qui est arrivé aux élèves des pensionnats indiens, nous savons que c'était si triste de tout savoir à ce sujet, que cela pourrait être changé avec un changement en nous-mêmes et un changement dans notre société et un changement dans notre nation. Tout comme lorsque j'entendais ce député parler là-bas. Si nous en avions plus, des députés qui connaissent vraiment les besoins, je pense que nous pouvons avoir un meilleur Canada.
Q. Il avait des paroles très sages.
Merci d'avoir partagé votre temps.
A. That’s what I have learned just by travelling and seeing other countries.
Q. Vous êtes allé dans de nombreux endroits.
A. Ouais. J'ai vu l'histoire d'autres pays, d'autres nations, je l'ai vue de mes propres yeux et je l'entends de mes propres oreilles.
Some people ask me how much education I have. They ask me if I have been to university. I say that I have never been to university, but I have been to nature’s university. I learned more through nature.
Just the other day I was telling my children it is going to rain within four days. And it happened. Somebody asked me in Cochrane —
I went inside a café. There were four elderly men that I know and their wives were sitting at a big table there. When I walked in they said, “Oh, here’s a man who can tell us what kind of winter we’re going to have.” I looked around and I said, “I think we’re going to have a cold winter.” “How do you know?” they said. I said, “I noticed that you are growing your beards. You are preparing for a cold winter.”
Q. That’s good.
A. So that’s my story about what happened to me. You could pretty well tell that it happened to so many of our students.
Q. Merci beaucoup.
A. One of the things that happened to our students was they didn’t even know about their own traditional values, and when they come out of school and they have their own families, they are not able to teach their children about these traditional values and unable to teach them the kind of teachings that our People had because at one time our people were very noble people. But that has been lost. They aren’t even taught about their own kinships. They always say if you know about your kinship you will grow up to learn to respect your own people, respect your own relatives. Without knowing your kinship you will be just like a dog. You don’t know if they are a relation or not.
Q. That’s true.
A. Tant de choses que nos gens ont dans leur propre éducation qui doivent être enseignées.
In my lifetime —
Lately I begin to find out in White society there is still a need for them to really understand our people. Last summer at the Calgary Stampede I was sitting in front of a tee-pee seeing all the tourists and all the people walking through the tee-pees. A couple of men approached me and they sat down. They told me they came from Spain. They are studying native history. One was a photographer. After they finished talking to me they asked me, “Where can we find the Indians?” I said, “You’re talking to one of them!”
Right away I know all they know about the Indians is about the stereotype people. They think that we’re still dressed in our feathers.
Q. Ils cherchaient quelqu'un avec des tresses! (Rire)
Et des peaux de daim.
A. Ouais.
Q. That’s funny.
R. Voici donc mon histoire de ce qui m'est arrivé.
Q. Très bien.
R. J'ai dû passer par un centre de formation pour changer ma vie. J'ai pu pardonner, j'ai pu donner mon pardon à mon peuple. Alors tout le monde est mon ami.
One of the things my mother told me one time when I was young, she said, “Sonny, as you go down in life don’t ever meet a person with a dead face. Always meet a person with a smile. Be polite, no matter who they are; a child, a stranger, no matter who it is. They all have the same feelings. The Creator made us all the same. The only difference is the race, colour and creed. That’s the only difference. Other than that we’re all one person.” She always said that.
These were the kind of teachings our Native People had. This has never been taught in the Residential Schools. So that’s where we really became lost. We could be called a lost people.
Q. That’s why we do these interviews. We do these interviews so the stories aren’t lost. Because a lot of people are getting older and we want to make sure that those stories are kept for the next generation and the next generations. They are all wonderful stories, like your own.
Thank you. M’gwich.
— End of Interview